Personal Leadership

As a manager, there's no getting around the fact that how well people like and trust you matters. According to this week’s guest, Patric J.M. Versteeg – CISO at Viterra, a global agricultural network operating in 39 countries, trust and likability are even more critical in security than in many other fields.

Last year, Patric was named European CISO of the Year. With over two decades of experience in the role, it’s safe to say he knows a thing or two about what makes a strong leader in the world of security.

In this episode, Robby and Patric discuss what makes a great CISO, the importance of “personal leadership,” and the common pitfalls many fall into.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:10

Welcome to the mnemonic security podcast.

Robby Peralta 0:15

For some it's a mission, for others it's a salary, but for all of us, the job is easier to do when people like you. Sales, HR, and marketing have been around since the 1940s, and security is still trying to find its place in the York chart. So personal leadership, emotional intelligence, and how well people like and trust you matter. Maybe even more in security than in other established departments. Patric Versteeg, welcome to the podcast. Good to see you again. Good to hear you again. I have two requirements to this podcast. You have to know your shit in a given area of cybersecurity, and you have to have a name that's just impossible for me to pronounce correctly.

Patric Versteeg 1:03

Or I hit both marks, or uh we keep this podcast very short, you know. That's one of the two.

Robby Peralta 1:09

One of the two. So you are you have 18 experiences LinkedIn, and I won't name all of them, but I'll just like the last five or six was the CISO for the Dutch Justice Department, ABN AMRO, Nova Media, Global Connect, Logists. And now you work for a company called Vitera. And you were um you were the European CISO of the year last year.

Patric Versteeg 1:32

Yes, I am. Awarded with a with a nice trophy, which is uh downstairs uh in the in the closet. And I'm really, really proud of that one. Yeah.

Robby Peralta 1:41

I do not blame you for that. And uh for those of you that can't see us but can hear us, he's got uh literally a whole wall of diplomas. So you have a problem of where to put your next one that I know you're working on.

Patric Versteeg 1:52

Yeah, yeah, I'm working on my MBA. Uh should be finalized this summer, and then uh we're moving to a PhD even uh after the summer. So uh see.

Robby Peralta 2:02

Either have to get a new room or gotta you gotta do some moving around, but they look very nice. The man cave of education and podcasts.

Patric Versteeg 2:10

This is my this is my man cave of education. You're truly correct. Yes.

Robby Peralta 2:14

Awesome. So all of that, greatness, and you didn't go to middle school. And I mean that in the best way possible, obviously.

Patric Versteeg 2:22

Um I I did get I I did go to middle school. There's a little bit of a misconception there, but I I dropped out of high school.

Robby Peralta 2:28

So um so how did you get all those accolades and things in the wall?

Patric Versteeg 2:34

So I I dropped out of school and and went to become a shopkeeper. Queen, very clear early when I was uh was a shopkeeper after one and a half years there there was no room to grow uh on the intelligence side. So no courses, no trainings, nothing there. So I I I just moved into IT. I had a very nice friend. He said, you know your stuff around computers. I was at a computer shop, and that's how I moved basically into IT. And I had the great opportunity then and there to start on my first certification in Windows MT4. And basically that's that's how I got hooked. So I have 17 from Microsoft, and I have all the prints and the ether ones and what have you not, 25 ones from security. So basically, all from ISACA, all from IC 2, all from Easy Council. So basically, I'm self-employed since 2002, and I spend the money that I earn for a for a huge chunk on the certifications and the training. And then I got my master's degree from uh Easy Council University. Um, so that was a that was a big milestone being a high school dropout and still uh obtaining your master's degree. And from that, I thought I should do something on leadership, transformational leadership. That's where I also got the award for in 2024. So started my MBA route and finalizing that this year and then uh starting my PhD.

Robby Peralta 3:59

Awesome. But knowing all that, I also know that you feel, and that's what we're gonna talk about today, that certifications aren't necessarily the thing they're gonna make you a great CISO.

Patric Versteeg 4:10

No, no, you know, certifications you don't do for yourself, certifications you do for somebody else because you want to show to the outside world that you have some type of certification. So it's more like a gimmick than something else. What you do for yourself is education, and that's why I have my own training company with no certifications, teaching you personal leadership.

Robby Peralta 4:34

Yeah. I guess this will be the name of the episode: personal leadership.

Patric Versteeg 4:39

Yeah, that's a great one. Um so basically, I think certifications are important to show that you have some basic understanding of how things work. But from education and from training, from coaching and from mentoring comes the actual value. That's why I built the Next Gen CISO network. And uh I'm building uh authentic leadership courses there to help people advance to become the CISO they should be, not to hop around every two years to be heard, to be understood, to know how you frame your message to the board. And that's not with vulnerability management, risk management, but it comes from authentic, being your authentic self.

Robby Peralta 5:25

And would you just mind for the listeners that um would you mind framing the the problem or framing the an issue that you've seen, you've probably met of you know hundreds of CISOs. Um and I obviously everybody's different, everybody has different backgrounds, but uh the most common problem you find with CISOs, what uh what would you say that would be?

Patric Versteeg 5:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, again. So the most common problem you have with CISOs, and now I'm sorry I'm over-generalizing uh because we're lacking a lot of uh uh women in the industry, and we we should have more. But what I what I tend to see when I go to conferences, when I give courses, when I give trainings, is that they're mostly, and people can't see us because this is podcast, but they're a little bit like me. They're like gray, they're like in their 40s, 50s, they come from a background from IT, networking, programming, development. Often they come from the the Windows installing and those types of duties. And then they jump up, they just went up the ladder. So they they moved into a managerial, a team leader role, managerial role, and somewhere they ended up tag, you're it, you're the CISO. And then with that, they undergone some of the certification trainings as they should, like CISSP and the CCISO and those kind of things. And the biggest problem I see there is that there is no leadership training in those certifications. If you look at we have great universities in the world and they're doing their utmost to train people, and the certification bodies, EC Council, Isaka, IC Square, they do a great job to train and getting people some intelligent knowledge, but they're not training on leadership. And leadership, again, personal leadership, authentic leadership is not about selling vulnerability management, risk management, or any other board reporting to any kind of higher level management or the board. It's about being yourself, being true to yourself, know what drives you, and lead from that. And that's something I want to bring to the world because that's missing. And to anybody that I speak, uh, I had the great opportunity to talk to some people from a very big solution vendor today, which we both know, Robby. Uh, they also recognize that same problem. The the leadership component, the emotional intelligence and the social intelligence component within the CISO community is just lacking. And it's we we can't blame the people for it because they're not being taught to do so. If I would have known 20 years back, what I know now, I would have been a lot of a better better CISO now, but I also would have been a lot of a bad better CISO 15 years ago. And I went on this journey about 10 years ago, something like that. And I have still so much to learn. Well, what I've learned, I want to bring to the community. So they're not burning out, that they're not job hopping, that they feel understood, that they know where the problem lies and how to solve it.

Robby Peralta 8:41

You called it EQ or SQ.

Patric Versteeg 8:44

Yep, emotional intelligence and social intelligence. So the emotional intelligence is about how do you lead from your authentic self, how do you lead from the heart? What's hard-coded in your DNA that you can use to be the best version of you? And the social intelligence is more how do I move in different social environments and what's the norm and how do I engage that? How do I engage the board? How do I engage my peers? How do I engage my, if I still can say that, my subordinates? Um, and that's not that there is a generic rule for that, that I can say, well, here you have a description on how you should engage boards, because it doesn't exist. People should recognize that boards are made of people, not of functions. And those people have a certain desire and a certain knowledge level. So if you're doing board reporting, you need to connect with those people and not connect with the with the numbers that you're providing, because one board wants a very structured, very detailed report on numbers, and the other ones want a more qualitative approach where you do some storytelling. And that's something you need to know and understand. So that comes into the social uh component.

Robby Peralta 10:04

From everything I've uh listened and read that that came from you so far, you are you're advocating for CSOs and security professionals to take the time to get better at personal leadership, communication. I don't want to say marketing, but yeah, marketing, negotiation. Yeah.

Patric Versteeg 10:21

Marketing, negotiation, sales. Yeah, these are the things that they really should should learn. You know, it's if you're on the higher echelons of a company, so we're struggling in the in the in the CISO community because we have CISOs, there are a CISO for a company with 10 people, which they should be, and they have an important role, but they're often more technical driven and are a jack-o-hole trait. But if we talk about the CISOs for bigger companies that need to report to boards or oversight committees or things like that, they need to understand how that language works and how to explain certain items to different committees, because an audit committee has another language that you use than a board language. And that's where I wanna help people.

Robby Peralta 11:08

The future Robby calls you, right? And says, Hey, I want to be a CISO. I am a CISO, I want to be a better CISO. Um and I you I'll let you answer. What did you what did you answer to me?

Patric Versteeg 11:19

Okay, so what I would ask you first, and that's the obvious question, did you do any cybersecurity certifications? Because it's one thing that you can show it externally, that you have some basic knowledge, and secondly, do you have any basic knowledge? So do you have a cybersecurity certification, or did you do a master's or a high school or college in the field? That's one. Secondly, then don't focus if you want to be a CISO on the technicalities of every bit and piece that comes with all the technical products. Don't get me wrong, technology for me is very important if you're a CISO. And I know I'm rubbing a lot of people the wrong way, but if you don't know your technology, I don't think you can be a CISO. It's 70% of our work. And and you can like it or not, but it's it's part of IT. We have all these tools there, uh EPP, EDR, MDR, so all these all team malware, all these endpoint protection stuff, you have the the network protection stuff, you have the firewalls, you have the email security, those kind of things. You need to know at least a bit more than the basics about that. No doubt about it. But if you do, don't start focusing on more technical trainings, but start focusing on improving yourself on the personal side. So, what do you what did you do on emotional intelligence? What did you do on social intelligence? Do you have one or more coaches that you can bounce your problems off that can help you reflect and can help you become the better C cell? So, short answer get a coach, get a mentor, get the proper education, but in in leadership, in personal leadership, and ensure that you go on a transition, let's say, transition journey on that one. Because that that will take you a couple of years and invest on that.

Robby Peralta 13:20

I mean, we've heard it over and over again in cybersecurity, know thyself. But we actually we're thinking about our network.

Patric Versteeg 13:27

Yes. Network, users, computers, the technical mumbo jumbo. And how many CISOs have you spoken to that actually know themselves, know what drives them, know where they're coming from, and are there are they connected to that?

Robby Peralta 13:44

Not gonna lie, my um my boss and I downloaded the book you told me to download. It's called True North. And uh we both downloaded it and I I was listening to it, and it was like, yeah, pick a friend that you trust. And I just called a boss and I was like, Yeah, read this book. We're gonna talk about it. So we're gonna do these uh things together. Uh, but you've done that with you've been a coach for a bunch of different CISOs. What are some of the observations you've made or like the things that you see for people going through this journey?

Patric Versteeg 14:08

Okay, so one of the most important things that I see is that people think that when they're a CISO, they're top of the hill. And the problem is that you're not on top of the hill, you're just fulfilling a role in a cybersecurity mechanics. Uh, and everybody seems to be a CISO. But what I always say to the youngsters that I coach and train is that if you like what you're doing now, they'll become a CISO. Because a CISO is now if you get the CISO title at a small company again, it might be fine, and you still might be doing your pen testing if you like, or you might be doing your firewall configurations, or you might be doing something technical cybersecurity, including awareness or risk management or things like that. But if you become a CISO at a bigger company, you will be burdened with financial management, with people management, with politics, those kind of things. And you need to have a hang for that to like that, and otherwise don't become a CISO. So it's it's not top of the hill. And secondly, if you think you're top of the hill, that gives you a little bit of a downwards approach that you're better than other people, and you're not, or it gives you the idea that you're smarter than other people, you're not. If you want to be a great CISO, hire smarter people than you. So my team is full of people who are smarter than me in 99% of all the technical or let's say cybersecurity technical environment. So I have a great lead on my cyber defense center. I have outstanding cybersecurity analysts, and they're all smarter than me. I have a guy who's doing Microsoft uh in-depth cybersecurity on M365. I sometimes can't just follow him how smart he is. And I love it because I can recognize that I have the right guy because he's smarter than me to do that. And I'm possibly the smartest guy to bring everything together, ensure that we have the funding, and that our senior leadership understands how it all works together.

Robby Peralta 16:18

Due to emotional intelligence, which is what you've been putting your eggs in the all your focus into, I guess.

Patric Versteeg 16:25

Yes, exactly. And that's the great thing. If you want to be a great leader, surround you with even smarter people. Um, if I hire somebody, I ask them to reflect always on two questions. One is I hire smart people to tell me what to do. That's one. It's obviously a uh Steve Jobs uh uh expression, and the other one is if you and I always agree, one of us is obsolete. Yeah, funny, yeah. But but people start thinking about that, and then actually, if I remind them of that, they speak up in meetings. Yeah, it's it's I have an open culture on that, they can speak up. And you know, I'm Dutch, so we are used to being very confrontal, uh, very open even in meetings. I have people from other teams who needed to learn a little bit about that, but you know, and if they don't like it, and that's where the social emotional component comes in, you give them some other room. Uh so that's why you need to connect with people, you need to, in certain cultures, you go out for a drink or a beer and you hear more than you hear on the meeting table. Uh, but that's fine. But at least if you're open and approachable to it. And and people have sometimes have a hard time that to tell you that you're wrong or that you're behaving in the wrong way. But as long as they feel that you're open for it and that you're directly willing to do something with that, it's fine. You need to be very, very cautious about how you move, uh, let's say, in certain cultures, and what I mean move is how you use your emotional intelligence and your social intelligence. But the most important thing is that you own your mistakes. And if somebody is kind enough, friendly enough to tell you that you did something wrong, don't go into defense. Own it, apologize, be honest about it. So mean it. If you don't mean it, don't do it. Mean it, and then move on.

Robby Peralta 18:30

Do you think it's fair to say that if you don't have those, if you don't have the ability, mental ability to do what you just said, that you probably shouldn't be a CISO or a leader in general?

Patric Versteeg 18:40

It it's not even a CISO, you should be a leader in general. Yeah. Yes. This this is something that comes with the job. And I think that that's also that that emotional intelligence problem, that social intelligence problem. We're not used to being that vulnerable. You know, if you if you come from IT, if you we talked about earlier in the podcast about this background, those people come from IT. I come from IT, I have that background, and we're not used to being vulnerable. We think that if you are vulnerable, somebody is going to be taking advantage of that. What I've learned in the last 10 years is that if you are vulnerable, you need to find a really, really, really bad person with really bad intentions to misuse that vulnerability. But if you're open up, if you are vulnerable, you will have so much more meaningful connections with your peers, your managers, and the people that report to you and you can't imagine. But it's it's for a lot of people, it seems like a leap of fate.

Robby Peralta 19:49

Yeah.

Patric Versteeg 19:50

And it isn't. You if you play around with it, start very, very slowly, somebody you trust and show your vulnerability and then move along, it will make you stronger instead of giving this position where people are going to uh take advantage of you.

Robby Peralta 20:08

And even if you're not a CISO, these sort of skill sets, they're applicable in every part of your work life and at home and everywhere else you go in your life, correct?

Patric Versteeg 20:18

Exactly. This is not something specific for CISOs. So this is something I'm going to do a deep dive in on my PhD to see where I can find the leadership principles that are more applicable for CISOs because that that research doesn't exist. And I wanna I want to find that and help then CISOs even to progress and enhance further. But all the leadership principles apply for cybersecurity, but there might be some that are more important than others.

Robby Peralta 20:48

Interesting. Podcast upcoming. You said that you don't go to security conferences that often. You don't go to like normal cybersecurity conferences anymore. Why not? And where do you go?

Patric Versteeg 21:03

I don't go to those cybersecurity conferences anymore because what they're telling you is always the same. Obviously, there are other companies there, there are other people there, there are other presentations there, but the things are always the same. Uh fix risk management, fix your budget, fix your communication, fix, fix, fix anything. And if it's not the community presenting, then it's a technology provider presenting that they have a fix, fix, fix or something.

Robby Peralta 21:30

Shocker.

Patric Versteeg 21:31

Shocker. So I tend to go more to those uh conferences that are about leadership, that are about personal development, those kind of things. And obviously, I go to type security conferences as well because I present a lot, but my presentations are 95% on leadership.

Robby Peralta 21:49

How many like different little things are there before you actually ch are able to change your yourself and develop yourself into being a better leader than you would have been? Is it is I I would assume that every every little thing you start implementing you'll get just incrementally better, and that's the whole name of the game, right? It's just getting incrementally better.

Patric Versteeg 22:07

So it it there are so many things you need to stack together to do that transformation. So I did a presentation on the drama triangle and the empowerment dynamic.

Robby Peralta 22:19

The drama triangle. Yeah. Sounds pleasant.

Patric Versteeg 22:22

So in short, every person is programmed to be like a superhero, to be a persecutor or a victim. And these are negative tendencies. They influence your complete emotional state, your social behavior, and your complete body language, as you can imagine. So the great thing is that there is a opposing dynamic there. It's called the empowerment dynamic. And it's the trainer, the coach, and the creator. It's people who create things. So instead of being a victim, you use what's happening to you as a victim to create something. So it took me about one and a half hours longer than normally to commute. So as a victim, to be honest, I've been complaining there. What I also could have done is take that additional one and a half hours, work on my community, work on my courses that I'm giving, trying to inspire people. You know, those one and a half hours delay are a given, but how you go about those one and a half hours and how you use them, I haven't used them yesterday in the right way, but I will in the future. You can't do anything about it. I'm a victim here. Okay, how can I create something from that?

Robby Peralta 23:44

I think the book you told me about called that a crucible.

Patric Versteeg 23:47

Yeah, that's a crucible. Then you have the coach. So helping people to move forward, and that's explaining them how to can bake a bread instead of giving them a loaf over and over time. Then you have the challenger, and the challenger is not telling people that they're doing something wrong, but the challenger is helping people to understand what their behavior is or what they're doing, what they think about it, and how you can help them to improve on that. So, what a persecutor would do, he would send out phishing emails, and then if somebody clicks on a link, you basically enroll them in a new cybersecurity program where they need to spend 30 minutes doing some kind of cybersecurity training CBT, which is quite annoying, and then they will get a new phishing email, and a coach would say, Well, you clicked on this phishing link, luckily nothing went wrong, and here are the pointers that you could learn on not stepping into that mistake again, and then leave it with that. Because getting a page in front of you where somebody says, Well, you clicked on a phishing link and you should have looked at these pointers, is enough instead of enrolling people again into this whole course program. And I know there are a lot of things flying around on the internet you should or shouldn't do phishing emails. I don't want to step into that one, but this is just an example how you could be way more on the challenging side and helping people to understand instead of the persecutor side and just pointing out. So, and here you have six new concepts that you can work with to improve yourself, right? And there are uh if you look at the at that you could do a leadership 360 assessment and you get maybe another 20-30 pointers where you can work and improve yourself. That's another thing that you should do as a leader, ensure that you clear up your mind. And most leaders will say, Well, I meditate. Okay, that's great, and it works for a lot of people. But I have somebody in my training plan who said, Well, I try to meditate, it just doesn't work. So I'm trying to explore with him somewhere else where his mind can go, what we call what I would call exit, exit of all the normal thought processes, clear, be focused on one thing, which is not work, and then come back and have like this new energy to progress. Yeah.

Robby Peralta 26:33

So if you're gonna learn anything from this episode, it is especially if you already know sort of cybersecurity from before, and you don't like completely stop thinking about cybersecurity, you'll get updated on these things. It'll happen naturally, it'll happen in your feeds, it'll happen through a podcast, you'll you'll hang with cybersecurity as we go along. But if you're gonna focus on anything moving forward, it's gonna be yeah, the soft side, the personal side, the the influencing others, making yourself a better person, connecting more with those around you, uh, establishing more meaningful relationships. And you're saying that will lead for you to only success in all parts of your life, I would assume. Yes. Yeah. Hit the spot there. Yeah. Exactly. It's like I've been listening to already, Patric. It's like I've already reflected on these things.

Patric Versteeg 27:19

We had another couple of talks I I recalled. So uh Yeah.

Robby Peralta 27:23

Stay tuned. Stay tuned, stay tuned. Yeah. So um one thing you made me think of, like um, and I've talked to Demonic about this, is the role vendors should have. Because you made me think that, like, yeah, your vendors are always selling to a company, but never really selling to the person that they're talking to, uh, and like how you they can be a part of their journey moving forward. Do you uh I haven't cracked that code? Um what role can vendors help you with? Or are cybersecurity vendors just the wrong vendor for these types of things?

Patric Versteeg 27:56

No, I don't I I I I don't think so. I I think the the cybersecurity vendors can play a very important role as being a knowledge partner. So it's it's not about selling your product, but it's more on selling the knowledge that you gain or the knowledge that you are able to produce as a vendor. So as a vendor, you see a lot of CISOs, you see a lot of struggles, you see a lot of problems. And obviously, you're a vendor, so as a vendor, you need to sell something, that's logical. As a vendor, you sell something. But as an added bonus, you could provide knowledge. And knowledge comes in a lot of shapes or forms, obviously. But it goes above a white paper. You could do CISO series, you could do inspirational series, but don't fall for the trap that you're then starting again about numbers, risk management, vulnerability management, board presentations, those kind of things. Help people with their leadership with all that. That's something cybersecurity vendors can do. And uh I had a very good talk today with uh one of the vendors who might be interested. So uh stay tuned.

Robby Peralta 29:07

Well, Patric, I can only say thank you so far for making me starting to think in that roads. The the bad thing is is like the next eight podcasts that I have lined up, they're not about that, but I'm gonna try to get those out there and then sort of uh at least do it every other because you're totally right. And I've I've seen this problem a million times. And as a sales guy, I'm thinking like I'm actually good at these things. Like uh I didn't study cybersecurity. Like I've I've just been talking to CISOs that have taught me these things. Uh, and I have the job that I have is because I literally enjoy people, right? That's that's what I find fun. And I really wish more of the clients that I had would actually say, hey, this is this is my situation. What would you do? That'd be so much more fun and giving to me. And I would go home and you know feel like I contributed more to the world. But anyway, thank you so much for all that you do for the community. And uh how many so you're about to start your PhD now. So that means six years, four years, six years? Five years, five years. Five years.

Patric Versteeg 30:06

And then I'm then I'm done with studying though. Uh I might I will I will be 55 and I will not pursue any more certifications or trainings or those kind of things. At that age, I want to really get back, so the PhD should lead somewhere to teaching at university.

Robby Peralta 30:22

Yeah.

Patric Versteeg 30:23

Um, it's also a leeway into giving more presentations. I'm very, very lucky to be invited to the C2 conference of mnemonic.

Robby Peralta 30:33

Yes.

Patric Versteeg 30:33

So I will do a leadership presentation there. And I also have lined up now a presentation at the CISO Day here in the Netherlands, and I'm opting for more of those presentations as well. But they will always be about personal leadership, personal insights, those kind of things. Obviously, to the left or right, maybe a technology presentation. But if I if I talk about a technology presentation, I would be talking about maybe a hack that we experience and then how we go about it. So it won't be about these are vulnerability numbers and this is how you bring them down, or this is how you bring risks down, or things like that. It will be always with this touch of what did I do personally with this issue, and how how did I learn and improve from that?

Robby Peralta 31:23

You know, right after I forgot when I had this conversation, it was right after I chatted with you. I chatted with another CISO, uh, and he's gonna be a part of the panel at the C2, uh, which he will be sort of more or less leading, because we'll have a presentation from you first. And he said to me, you know, my favorite episode, the one that I remember the most from, and he said he listened to all of them. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but uh thank you. Uh he said the one that uh I remember the most is the one where it was talking about like yeah, soft skills, and this is from a wellness coach, basically. And this was like 50 episodes ago, and that was his favorite. So I was like, shit, I wasted a lot of episodes on other things.

Patric Versteeg 31:58

Uh but uh I I I don't I don't think you did. It's more that we gain more insights. You know, the cybersecurity field is just a very we need to recognize that this is still a young field that we're working in, where all the other working fields uh on leadership, um HR, marketing, sales, they exist since what the 1940s, 50s earlier, and cybersecurity is something from like the 2000s and later. So we're we're a very young discipline within the social part of the business. And we need to recognize that.

Robby Peralta 32:33

Which is great for us because that we can piggyback off all the work they've done. Exactly.

Patric Versteeg 32:37

Exactly. So we shouldn't reinvent the wheel, we just should tailor the wheel to fit for our purpose. Well, Patrick, I'm looking forward to uh seeing you in Norway at the C2 Summit. And I'm looking forward to speaking to you about uh all the ideas that I have in the back of my head right after I click the uh the stop button here. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you for everybody. We'll see you soon. Uh-huh. And uh we'll talk soon.

Robby Peralta 32:59

This is the only beginning. First of the weekend. Thanks, Pat. And the first weekend. Bye. Well, that's all for today, folks. Thank you for tuning in to the mnemonic security podcast. If you have any concepts or ideas that you'd like us to discuss on future episodes, please feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn or to send us the mail to podcast mnemonic.no. Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.